Dr Christine Runyan - Mental Health and Covid - On Forgiveness and Healing

Christine Runyan – On Forgiveness and Healing

[00:00:00] Nick: Christine Runyan, Welcome and thank you so much, when I first heard you speak on the on being podcast you articulated what I think so many people have been feeling And I know I was feeling on that morning I'd had a conversation the night before having experienced trauma previously that it feels like everybody is experiencing some sort of low to medium grade trauma all the time And then I heard the podcast where you spoke I guess to that point welcome 

[00:00:33] Christine: thank you Nick It's a it's a real honor to be here And thank you for your kind words about listening to that as well I perceived several emails from from people and it's just really um an honor to know that it resonated and it touched people and ultimately helped people kind of understand what was going on with themselves and in their communities and maybe even larger in the world 

[00:01:02] Nick: Uh absolutely I think that that's you were able to articulate the big elephant in the collective global room that in everyone's wandering around with the smile on that we paint on every morning but feeling this heavy sense of It's been a big time and yeah So I really appreciated your articulating that and in such a compassionate way you know of course there was a few times I've had you referenced you know the phrase of course and thought yes you know how can we weren't aware of this Or maybe we were at some level but we hadn't quite brought it into conscious thought before I go to off-track which I am known to do um those who are not familiar And I'll preface any conversation If I ask a question but you have an answer that's probably a better one than the question I've asked Please just feel free to go off on that tangent That's probably the whole mark of my show is so far so 

[00:02:00] Christine: the tangents are the best part Yeah 

[00:02:02] Nick: They are they are the meatiest bits so Christine could you talk a little bit about the path that led to you doing the work you're doing now and I guess you can go as far back or as recent as you like 

[00:02:16] Christine: Sure so I would say the things that kind of define my professional trajectory and path And I will start by saying I'm a clinical health psychologist by education and training and have spent most of my career prior to these most recent years in integrated primary care So that is placing psychologist or other behavioral health specialists into primary care settings rather than in what we commonly know as traditional Settings where there's this division between you go to one place to get your medical care and the biomedical stuff with the body and you go to someplace else to get care for what might be happening in your mind and in your heart And I think we know I mean we've known for thousands and thousands of years about that intersection but our healthcare system certainly in the U S has bifurcated those And so I've always wanted to work at the intersection of that So most of my work has been in integrated primary care as a psychologist as a clinician as an educator doing some applied research and mainly promulgating models of integrated care And the themes within that work have really been to Increase access to mental health care and to decrease stigma around mental health care to really kind of normalize this human experience that we all have that we often use labels and descriptors as though they were and they can be meaningful operational definitions but it's though they were ultimate descriptions of reality instead of just labels of convenience to foster communication and understanding but so really trying to decrease stigma And so that has been kind of a mark of my career which I've done that work in a variety of different settings often working with underserved populations and marginalized communities And then the last few years I got very interested really from that platform Around clinician wellbeing and clinician mental health particularly among physicians who I think are ironically an underserved community when it comes to mental health care because of at least in the in the U S and I think it's true in many many places across the world both the very real barriers for accessing care in terms of licensing boards and credentialing questions that get very intrusive about one's mental health state and whether or not somebody's Can practice medicine safely and effectively And then a lot of those external barriers get internalized and create a lot of stigma culturally within seeking mental health care So I think it's a microcosm of what happens kind of in the general population but the stakes are much higher for physicians And so that led me in the last couple of years to really focus on clinician well-being and clinician mental health And I've founded a company called 10 health where we focus on wellbeing and mental health care for individuals and within organizations So that's kind of been my And I'm also a mindfulness teacher at the center for mindfulness in a university of Massachusetts And I teach mindfulness-based cognitive therapy And my journey into mindfulness started with an incredibly personal one based on my work as an integrated care psychologist and really hitting what I didn't understand at the time And I've come to understand was kind of empathetic distress and deep empathy fatigue it just felt like this heart that was kind of wide open and able to sit kind of unflinching with people and bear witness to stories that nobody else wanted to hear had essentially kind of stopped getting any oxygen to it It just really felt Kind of hardened and I was very unsure what to do with that Given what my my professional identity had been and found mindfulness for myself And then eventually continued to path down training for that and found mindfulness-based cognitive therapy which was just beautiful marriage of concepts of mindfulness with my background as a psychologist in therapy And so I'm a NBCT teacher at the center for mindfulness 

[00:06:55] Nick: That's huge that there is so many points that I'd love to ask about but my mindful that if I if I reach into one of them I could end up very off 

[00:07:05] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): do think 

[00:07:05] Nick: about my own 

[00:07:06] Christine: we're all the juicy stuff is so ask away 

[00:07:09] Nick: it That's that's that's where we're at I think about my GP and what an amazing job she does as a primary care physician over here in Australia And you know that she has to be feeling it All all of our collective vicarious stress and trauma that we present with she's an empathetic being but still I don't know this societal model that we perceive not only a GPS or any medical professional God-like but somehow that they're they don't they're not party to the same range of emotions It's a huge disconnect So I'm very mindful in whatever interactions to ask There's that word mindful how are you And I know within the realms of professional capacity you couldn't turn around and say well it's been a crap of a day but you know still by the same token yeah What uh what a relief a collective relief it would be if we could the label and uh the I can't think of the word it'll come to me later Anyway Thank you 

[00:08:11] Christine: a name that you know the the full spectrum of human experience and to be in relationship with one another at that level regardless of sort of titles and the professional exchanges that sort of have to happen but whether it's checking out at the grocery store to right sort of make eye contact lift to lift the eyes up from the phone sort of have those pleasant trees And um yes it's not you know you're not expecting to hear somebody all of what's going on for them when you're just trying to buy some bread but there is something there about just seeing and honoring that there's another being in front of you and not a robot And our systems know 

[00:08:55] Nick: I love 

[00:08:56] Christine: you know our our nervous systems really no that sense of eye contact and presence 

[00:09:04] Nick: I love I've heard you talk about it This is a scheduled distribut later on but it suits here beautifully the concept of othering and one thing I've really enjoyed from dipping into Buddhist philosophy is you know may all beings may all sentient beings be happy and that that excludes no one it really and also the concept of self cherishing how when we can remove a little bit of that focus from I guess the depths of our own pain and start to look at wow there's a sea of other people and beings around who are going through just as much and the crossover from when you move your focus from yourself to inquiring as to how someone else's that in itself is a nutrient I've found with would you agree ?

[00:09:51] Christine: Well I think you know I've gone you said right The best way to find yourself is to lose yourself in the service of others And I you know I think it is a timeless invitation in many ways right to just sort of pick one one's eyes up and be engaged with But even more than that to be kind of I think profoundly interested and you know there's been many points in my career where there's been opportunities to move away from direct clinical work right To go a little bit more macro a little more at the systems level And I do some of that work and starting my own company is certainly part of that But I just I love working at that level where you can just be deeply curious about another person's experience their lived experience their past experience their present and And so I just can't quite nudge myself away from that in part I think because ultimately they are my patients are my teachers my students in my mind from what Ms Class my teachers and I learn um as much if not more from you know having that that title teacher or doctor that I continue to learn So I can't quite separate from that So yeah I think being really present with and curious about other people's experiences can it builds the muscle and the skill to be able to turn that for oneself as well instead of being so quick to turn away from that which is unpleasant you know you mentioned othering and I think that is a by-product of things Happened for us that that feel unpleasant that our disconcerning and our response to that is to create distance to create separation And so then it gets very easy for anything that is unfamiliar whether that's unfamiliar in um past whether that's someone familiar in ideology or at the very basic level of phenotype right That that we each can just separate from And so any time which I think is really the dissolution of all of the othering is when you get saddled right up close to somebody and really understand their experience and where their thoughts and beliefs are coming from A lot of that just It dissolves And so we can start to do that with ourselves too If we build that capacity we can do that with ourselves in both directions So maybe it's that for some people it starts with self and then we can extend that grace to others maybe maybe for some people it starts with others And then we eventually do that for and with ourselves and there's healing and all of that 

[00:12:54] Nick: I'm continuously inspired by Stephen Covey's words about love The feeling is the product of loved the verb think for me that encapsulated what you said it doesn't matter what you start often It's difficult I think to do it for yourself because of well probably longer than we've got time for but when we start with someone else anyone else then we do begin to allow ourselves a little bit more kindness Like we feel whether it's the act or whether like you said it's the muscle memory Can I ask you how do you define mindfulness and what does mindfulness mean to you 

[00:13:31] Christine: Yeah So I define mindfulness both as present moment awareness but I add the quality of compassion if you will or you know compassion is often a term we think of around the presence of suffering in our present All of our present moment experiences don't include suffering So in moments where there are I would say present moment with awareness with compassion and maybe if there's not suffering present moment awareness with kindness um too I think that standard you know Jon Kabat-Zinn definition is without judgment I find that whether you're parenting a child or sort of teaching an animal something offering something to do rather than not to do can be a little more helpful right So instead of do this um but to rather offer an instruction of something to do and I've really come to that And in my work MBCT is a treatment for people who have recurrent depression and there is amount of judgment and self judgment that comes alongside recurrent depression who's experiencing that phenomenon And so It it can be a hard stop cause it's sort of like they don't have a frame for what how to do how to how to be in a way that doesn't include self judgment So instead kind of an invitation to sort of have that present moment awareness with kindness can be an invitation of something to add rather than something not to do Because as soon as you sort of have that without judgment and people notice that they judge you know then you start down the rabbit hole of judgment So that's how I define it 

[00:15:45] Nick: That's a beautiful definition and I can definitely attest to the point you made having a lived experience of depression There is so much that when you do start to invite mindfulness in and it's not just okay here it is it's a process but what a holiday it would be if we just didn't give ourselves such a hard And it sounds like such a simple not trite but catchy thing to say but when you unpack it my word you know if we spoke to our friends the way we speak to ourselves we probably wouldn't have many friends So just that Yeah I love that definition 

[00:16:22] 

[00:16:22] Christine: I work with healthcare professionals primarily physicians and You know one of the places that I do the most work is in that space And so these are people who write are highly highly educated employed making a good living have a particular kind of status within most cultures and suffer terribly from self-judgment And they have existed in a culture that is in many ways happy to profit off of that sense of not being good enough And so I work a lot in that space around noticing and you know that inner critic and noticing that self judgment and then just inviting in a kinder voice alongside of it to start

[00:17:11] Nick: Um invidious position to be in to be witnessing the suffering of so many at such a difficult time and also to be suffering but feel isolated So what powerful work you're doing and multiplicative benefits you know cause I guess they're they're a force multiplier and our collective wellbeing 

[00:17:37] Christine: Yes Yes Beautiful He said which it is such a privilege really when people share their inner world with me and and both share it but also with some willingness to want to shift that And I always ask you know how was this process affecting your doc and I'm fascinated and thrilled honestly by the responses they are they are a full force multiplier in And we've all had that experience right Of like we can know if we are going to a physician that isn't well and we can know like your experience with your GP when you're you know when you're sitting with somebody who has every desire intention and capacity to to extend that

[00:18:36] Nick: One of the points you mentioned and I've heard you mentioned a couple of times is just guess what the pandemic and the things that are running in synergy with that have done to our collective nervous systems could you talk a little bit about that 

[00:18:50] Christine: Yeah I will start by how I began to think about this was influenced probably by two things One was this frame that I've carried throughout my career around De-stigmatizing and trying to understand things through through that lens and through the lens of you know again largely working with people who are underserved and marginalized in various ways and trying to understand their experience there the system is very happy to put a lot of labels on them but when you look at it from a different lens you start to really understand how certain behaviors have emerged primarily out of being adaptive at some time And then we are quick to label them in the in the medical community as problematic or diagnose them And so I think it's that lens And then very early in the pandemic seeing really a surge of people seeking care who I had a lot of anxiety a lot of decreased functioning symptoms of decreased functioning and that had prior trauma like you know prior traumatic experiences that weren't necessarily even on the surface related to what we were going through with a pandemic or fear of getting ill or previous medical issues And I understood at that point that oh this is a resurgence of that sense of threats that are new and unpredictable and uncontrollable And when somebody has had prior trauma their system is quite sensitized to those things And so I started to understand this as an activation of the nervous system not using Pathology terms or diagnostic terms And we'll see that a lot in the literature in terms of you know the levels of PTSD or depression and anxiety and there are some times where you know when people get a label for something it can feel helpful because it finally has a name and a structure and it's acknowledged And so that can at times feel settling But I I worry about the proliferation of that language or those labels in a way where people start to then kind of own own them as their own or part of their identity my anxiety or my depression as opposed to the experience of these symptoms that are actually somewhat explicable by the times in which we're living and by the requirements and expectations of any one of us during this time So I started to write Because of those two lenses started to really look at what might be happening that we're labeling this in a pathologizing way but that actually is highly explicable for all of us because of our human condition right This sort of our our hardware and all of us like you know we all have the same source code for detecting fear and for being wired for survival and what that will lead many of us to do because of what's happening underneath the skin So I think it was those two frames that really helped me conceptualize it this way And and then talk about it this way with with people you know people in conversation and also patients that I was seeing that Really validated and normalize the experience not through a lens of something's wrong with me but something is collectively happening to all of us that we're trying to adapt to at a very rapid level with a lot of a lot of information and a lot of noise in our system and in the system. 

[00:23:04] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Brain fog and our innate intelligence I've had brain fog and I know that many people have if not you know everyone Is it a protective mechanism how does it arise And guess there's a is it an appropriate response to what's going on at the moment 

[00:23:23] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): So I'm sure there are others much more qualified to answer that question than I am What I can say is you know that when our nervous system is activated and we're all familiar with sort of the very extreme kind of classic fight flight or freeze response of our nervous system of our autonomic nervous system sort of in the face of a imminent threat or danger And so we all kind of are familiar with that at the extreme level but it's it's the same process that happens Maybe at a lower intensity but has been very chronic and some peaks of that very frequent for a lot of people And so whenever that system is firing we are designed the way our um software works is that our prefrontal cortex the thinking part of our brain Are most evolved Part of our brain actually goes offline a little bit It's compromised Um when our nervous system is inactivation mode and that is by design so that we don't get into right analysis paralysis of like is that a threat Should I run Should I fight Right If we if we pause that long and contemplate it if there were a real threat right we would not survive So this this mechanism portends our increased survival but it doesn't toggle according necessarily to the the level of threat So anytime there's activation you have some of what I think you're sort of referencing as sort of brain Because that part of our nervous system is not um know the the the neurons are not firing as quickly and as crisply because we're trying to leverage some other kind of response to keep us safe and to keep us alive So I think that the brain fog is related to this sort of more chronic lower level of activation that's happening for many people And this is a wonderful opportunity to bring in mindfulness because mindfulness with compassion is actually a wonderful antidote to that in the moment And in many moments because it can help quiet the system which is not the intention of mindfulness but it can be an invitation to It can be an invitation to pause and note kind of what's happening as soon as we do that as soon as we pause and we kind of say this is what's happening now our our stress response system dials down and we actually now have more access to that part of our brain that is very good with the planning and the decision-making and analyzing and strategizing Like it's very good with that So mindfulness can be a wonderful sort of in the moment resource when you notice that there's some confusion or things aren't if you can't quite find the word that you're looking for is to pause And to name that and that process alone can help to regulate so that you have more access to the thinking part of your brain Now I just want to note that I'm not I don't have the expertise cause I think when you talk about brain fog you can get into this space of something much more clinical particularly related to people who have experienced COVID So I don't want to travel too far off into that path that I'm not a neurologist so I don't want to say yes Mindfulness is going to cure your post COVID brain fog 

[00:27:35] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Draw out and draw a line clearly around that 

[00:27:37] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah 

[00:27:38] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Yeah Wow So I know you mentioned mental noting could you expand a little bit about what that is and how that can potentially be something we can use 

[00:27:49] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah I mean it's a sort of a classic technique within certain lineages of teaching mindfulness and meditation and in a practice a concentration practice of mindfulness where you are really trying to build that muscle of single pointed focus that may be on sound It may be on the breath visually And so you are corralling and encouraging your attention to stay on that object of concentration And it's very quickly when any of us do this we realize how distracted we can be and how challenging it is to to truly Focus on one thing and because if you're focusing on your breath for example you're hearing things and you're sensing things on your skin and the mind is doing what the mind does which is to think thoughts And so the mental noting practice is to notice any time your attention has been hijacked in some way from the point of concentration whatever it is you are intending to place your focus on And it is a really skillful way to uncouple from the content of your thoughts in particular compared to the noting when they occur So we can just note that there is a thought we could note even get a little more granular to note the quality of the thought for example worry planning regret we could note oh this is there for many years as a clinician I would get very deep into the content of people's thoughts and the more you go the next layer you can go and then it layered it's nesting dolls You can just keep going into the endlessly into the content And so this is a quite different way to be with thoughts That's not really at all about analyzing it's just beginning to notice the workings of the mind and that you can use this practice to start to uncouple that you don't have to actually solve the worry thought or to go down and fully explore the planning Thought you can just see that it's there come back to the point of focus and this will really build this muscle of concentration while also giving you a very honest teaching of one's own mind Because your tendency is going to be different than my tendency is going to be different than the next person's tendency And once we can sort of see where that pattern is we we also can start to just almost have a little sense of humor about it really Oh there it is Again there's I mind doing what my mind does and in step up away a little bit from the content and this is a hard I mean it sounds easier as we talk about it but this is not an easy proposition because our thoughts are so seductive especially the sticky ones They're so seductive because we in some ways we have so much horsepower in our cognitive abilities that we have allowed ourselves to be tricked into believing that that is also aware of sort of the answers to our wellbeing lies

[00:31:44] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): I'm trying to remember the text but something about a gentleman who lived a short distance from his body But I think 

[00:31:51] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah 

[00:31:51] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): We can know these things and I think you're pointing to this that it is a practice that we start and we bring kindness along with it because we will fall and we'll go off track

[00:32:02] but you know so yeah we do know it and then it's actually doing it and being kind about falling over Hmm Thank you What are some of the other tools that I guess easy or slash simple to mobilize in the moment Cause I'm aware there'll be many people who are doing it exceptionally tough and may feel like they have limited access to resources emotionally what are there some simple things that they can employ 

[00:32:36] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah the strategies that I think actually all have some simplicity to them And so sometimes can be rejected by by virtue of the fact that they are so simple and yet they are effective and the breath is one that is always with us and It is a direct source to our regulation that in doing so allows us access to much more of our wisdom than our reactive being And so there's a variety of different sort of simple breath techniques that that I think when somebody is activated sort of underneath the skin activated can employ that will just help to quiet the system so that you can have access to your kind of self your wise itself your most intentional self So a couple very portable ones is really just uh elongating the exhale we are always breathing and our breath is sometimes a very sensitive barometer to this level of activation right if we turn towards our bodies as seeing them as a not just sort of along for the ride with our head but like a rich source of information when we get activated or stressed or for most of us our breath becomes a little quicker a little more shallow more up in the chest And so for some people that alone can be a cue but it also can be a way that we can regulate just by dropping the breath the belly into the diaphragm without over efforting and controlling the breath just really focusing on a longer exhale which can send a message to our parasympathetic nervous system or sometimes called rest and digest system The part of our nervous system that if we can turn that on our sympathetic nervous system will quiet know just telling your sympathetic nervous system to chill out just like telling somebody who's right Worrying to say don't worry or it's not very effective so we can leverage something else there is some kind of coherent breathing that you can do where you're doing a little counting with the breadth maybe a count of five to the inhale and account of five or ideally six or seven on the exhale if you want to do the extended exhale or just even that coherent breathing can help there's some lovely YouTube videos or other sources for something called box breathing which is another way to get really intimate with the parts of your breath We often think about inhale exhale Has the breath but there's you know there's that little space in between the inhale and exhale and that little space between the exhale and inhale and box breathing just sort of gives equal measure to each four parts of the breath And it's a way to just have some regulated breathing So would encourage people to explore some breath techniques that really work for them We have that sort of like oh just breathing count to 10 it's not terrible advice and really wonderful to even be explicit about in doing so because the more we can share that especially with I think with kids and with people around us that we're taking an active stance at regulating our own nervous system So that we can be responsive to what's around us and not reactive because our worlds are filled with so much noise that we can react to So how do we just quiet that a bit And I think it really does start

[00:37:07] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): That is beautiful I am I think about modeling that for my daughter Who's 10 And um often I'll say if she's kicked a toe or stated on the skateboard Yeah I know this sounds crazy but breathe into it it does you know but she does and it it does help you know and and that definitely elongating the breath I had someone do I think it was 4, 7, 8 and then I heard 4, 8, 12 breathing through Ralph Delarosa 

[00:37:36] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Lovely Yeah 

[00:37:38] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): very very very calming And and again there's the the difficult thing that when you most need to do it you often can either discredit it or just not be bothered or but if you just do a small amount and start small Five minutes of breathing can really make a day flow a little bit better 

[00:38:01] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah That's the value of the practice when you think you don't need it it's so that it's available to you when you do need it and unless somebody is really training to be a master meditator enter some meditation competition or at some point we'll do that in the U S because it's what we do with yoga to competition whatever But the goal is not to do that it's to really become intimately familiar with one's own mind that you can bring it bring that wisdom and understanding into your relationships into your work into your relationship with yourself It's not the measure is not those five or 10 or 30 minutes that your informal practice hits How does that begin to show up and infiltrate into all the moments of your life and relationships 

[00:39:04] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Thank you 

[00:39:05] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah 

[00:39:05] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): I got a couple more questions because I'm mindful I don't want to take up too much of your time but one of the points that I know that we indicated we talk about was less talking and more being with in a role of supporting Could you expand on that for me 

[00:39:21] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah I think it's kind of what I alluded to I mean obviously I'm in the business of talk therapy it's what I do and you know that is the vehicle in which I really try to understand somebodies experience and there are limitations in that particularly like 

[00:39:44] that having people see this this thing they right Carry around with their head this body as as both a source of information and Probably the deepest place of healing then because it is the original sort of insults that we all kind of experienced too when we have certainly if we have trauma in our lives there is a very intentional necessary and kind of aggressive detachment from the body And so trauma work is all about that reintegration and coming back into one's body And while that may not happen to such an extreme for people who haven't had what we might clinically or classically define as a traumatic event trauma is really about both the events that people experience kind of how they experience it and the impact So there are you know certain things that we might all Collectively agree are traumatic events And yet everybody who experiences those isn't going to develop a clinical manifestation of that that we now call PTSD and then people have PTSD from much less collectively acknowledged types of trauma including vicarious trauma from being a helper from being a healer from hearing stories right That other people don't want to hear from being present in helping people recover from situations that are important to bear witness to those stories but are not inert in how they land on a helper or healer so that kind of suffering is always about Turning away from our physiological experience from what's happening in our body at the micro level and at the macro level And so much of healing is about befriending and learning how to be really with and present in our body and talk therapy can have some effective elements to forming a relationship to developing trust And then ultimately that's where the healing really has to occur in that space And that's very much a being with space and so for individuals also in times of Re-experiencing or intense suffering There is this tendency to go right up into the head And so the invitation is to drop into the body to see where it lives in the body where you feel it in the body And so working with people to develop some awareness and some language around that's sort of our the currency in which we can begin to understand one another but sometimes it also just shows up as gestures right this I know there's something happening here right In my heart center

[00:43:20] or they're they can show up in a physical with a physical presence as well But that's what I mean by sometimes Language is important but it has its limitations as well And sometimes we have to just be with and invite ourselves to be with what is actually here Cause as soon as we go up into the head space we're recreating that that distance

[00:43:51] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Yeah thank you I and it talks to it which is another contentious issue we won't get into but the power of a hug you know even if it's 

[00:44:00] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah 

[00:44:02] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): giving ourselves a hug that that being with uh is is huge and hugely healing uh and even just being physically present with compassion you know for ourselves and others I found hugely healing 

[00:44:20] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): I mean that speaks to again What happens underneath the skin what our whole system knows of Compassion all that is found in a hug that is completely silent completely We don't need the words Cause our system just understands that as presence has love as attention in some kind of resonance so we can say those things but they don't quite do the trick as a hug Not quite Yeah 

[00:45:01] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): I think one of my fondest memories is of having a hug with mum but that's a very healing space but I guess pandemics aside where we can hopefully at some stage do that for each other again What have we not spoken about or what are you currently working on now that would be relevant to the general public that we could talk about 

[00:45:23] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah when I think about how to be with this ongoing pandemic and how to begin to think about coming out of it I think there's going to be some need for forgiveness forgiveness towards others again who behave the way we behaved or we would like them to behave or do the things we wanted them to do I think there's going to be A lot of need for forgiveness and forgiveness for yourself as well so that's one thing and I love the poet David White work And his poems have been a very constant companion for me through the last well for many years but I go back to them repeatedly and often listened to him recite his poetry And I love how he says poetry or words for which we have no defense much like a hug And I love how he talks about forgiveness in his book I think constellations and the power of ordinary words And he talks about forgiveness is ultimately something that is about time and appreciation and understanding And if we could just acknowledge that maybe and forget all the drama that comes in between like needing to forgive and forgiveness we do ourselves and others a favor to sort of prevent all of that But I think forgiveness comes to mind as one thing and I think this has been Really a time for people paying attention is a lovely instruction about the human condition and the universality of the human condition And we're approaching 700,000 or past 700,000 deaths worldwide from this pandemic And so I don't think the word silver lining is appropriate And there has been so many people who have lost lost so much and that has not been an equal opportunity proposition And so want to use that term but I do think it has taught us about how we are so

[00:47:45] and what we can do with that is I think a wonderful opportunity if taken to see how How similar We are all across countries across ideologies across political and social spectrums across phenotypes all the things So I think about that and I also think about not just what was what has been lost but

[00:48:20] what I don't like what people have discovered what people should be proud of themselves and others of collectively and can we Can we turn our attention towards those things as well and not just pay attention to the negative We're so inclined for the negative for very good reason biologically but we also see the bright spots and amplify the bright spots and figure out how to carry those bright spots forward individually and collectively because we'll have another pandemic and wouldn't it be great if we were a little bit more prepared as a species and a little more unified as a and have a little more compassion when we face the next

[00:49:28] Those are things 

[00:49:31] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Thank you That's beautiful Christine And there is a tremendous opportunity for all of us to learn and capitalize on everything that we've been through because we can see just how quickly we can alter course and change direction and commit to something that was inconceivable 24 hours earlier if we can mobilize that collectively together for a compassionate and mutually beneficial Cause that has to be a good thing so with your work Christine is there is there a book in the offing like I saw there are some meditations online Are there ways that people can engage with your work in the general public 

[00:50:13] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Aye Aspire to to put a book out into the universe I have to find a a benefactor to be able to help me to do that But I tend to tend to health tend.health is the website for the the company that I have that where we focus on wellbeing for individuals and organizations in healthcare and my email is out there and around I I don't do social media It's a very intentional choice and has been for many years to not engage in that space that I honestly feel it has many more pernicious effects then the state Positive what I would call side effects that those platforms are about So that limits me in many ways I know And I'm comfortable with that It's it's a choice

[00:51:16] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): I I was encouraged to grow a social media presence by a couple of lovely friends who who work in that space and I've reluctantly done it But again I think it's something I'll definitely minimize because I don't feel good after I've spent any degree of time It doesn't matter which one they're all they're all encouraging a behavior that is not based in comparison It's not compassionate And we do edit what we show which is not helpful Cause if we showed the full spectrum we might lose friends but at least that would be more real than wholesome 

[00:51:54] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah I don't find it to I don't find it to encourage

[00:52:00] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Hmm 

[00:52:00] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): that's the uh yeah that's the currency that I prefer to engage in so 

[00:52:09] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Brilliant Well if um the book 

[00:52:11] project 

[00:52:12] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): me it's you found me all the way across the world so 

[00:52:17] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Yes 

[00:52:18] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): people can find me Yeah 

[00:52:21] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): Yes Thank you so much Christine Runyan and for for everything 

[00:52:26] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): Yeah Thank 

[00:52:26] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): And 

[00:52:27] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): you for all you're doing for all the incredible guests that you have on on your stage here on your virtual stage and for having your voice and the world It's a gift 

[00:52:42] nick___on_ningy_ningy_land-2021-10-5__9-3-33 (2): thank you Thank you so much 

[00:52:45] christine_runyan-2021-10-4__19-3-33 (2): My pleasure