Lama Christopher Transcript

Nick

Welcome to don't quit on me, the podcast series where we consider alternative ways to manage the inevitability of stress and pain through speaking with a wide range of people who share their stories, strategies and perspectives, we aim to inspire hope, confidence and belief in the fact that things can get better no matter where you are. 

So who am I? My name is Nick and I have a lived experience with depression, panic, anxiety and chronic pain along with migraines. I've been around mental health challenges for most of my life. I've also produced a CD and written a book which looked at my own recovery through these conditions and thoroughly researched the strategies. That I used in order to fully understand why I got better and how sustainable my recovery would be. I spoke to roughly 30 people in various fields such as nutrition, meditation, movement, exercise, science, an reflective journaling, and basically presented this information as an affirmation that what I had done had some substance.

So I've been very interested in understanding how each of us can relate to the challenges of life so that we can minimize any unnecessary suffering. That's basically the crux of why don't quit on me podcast exists.

I stood there, gently rocking, still in my work clothes. Rhythmically transferring the weight from 1 foot to the other. My youngest son cradled in my arms was on the verge of sleep. For a 6 month old child he had an impeccably strong will. I had rocked him gently in his cut for over an hour before I picked him up. It was the usual battle of wills that I imagine will continue long into adult life.

Tonight he had won and yet I had won too. I had acted skillfully, meaning I hadn't lost my patience and raised my voice. I rolled with each moment, sensing what I needed to make happen, sensing that he had got to a place beyond tiredness and he would need my help to journey to the land of sleep. He had won in getting me to pick him up and rock him. In essence, he craved a closeness, his torso visibly relaxed, the minute that he was picked up and held. It's a feeling we all crave and pursue for most of our lives, and I suspect it's at the root of many of our actions. That sense of complete acceptance, the warmth of an embrace that gives completely and without judgment.

In these nighttime hours as children journey to the realms of dreams, they take on a serenity and beauty that transcends all the usual noise and activity that we get locked into during the day. Here, as his breathing began to settle and slow, I really began to appreciate him for the beautiful child that he is. I hummed along with the music, a CD of Tibetan chant of the primordial sound Om. It was having the desired somniferous effect and I joined in the chant gently so as not to wake him and felt myself begin to relax and center too.

Lama Christopher is a Lineage Holder in the Dzogchen tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. For more than 20 years he has studied and practiced intensively under the guidance of his root teacher, Lama Kunzang Tenzin, as well as many other accomplished masters, both Himalayan and Western. 

Besides being committed to the authentic and accessible transmission of this timeless wisdom tradition, he is also a joyful parent and has enjoyed a professional career of four decades as a trusted legal and financial counsel. 

Lama Christopher teaches and guides meditation throughout the USA and abroad) obviously you know, Covid permitting) and online. 

And on a personal level, we are related as distant cousins, which I discovered roughly 20 years ago. A little bit over 20 years ago when I first came out to Australia, and so we've been in touch since then. But this conversation that you're about to hear is the first time that we have actually spoken, so I hope you enjoy it nearly as much as I did and that you get something useful from it.

Nick

Lama Christopher Coriat welcome.


Lama Christopher

Nick, wonderful to be with you what a privilege.

Nick

And a long overdue thing that had to happen.

Lama Christopher

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to come and be with you on your podcast.

Nick

Not at all.

Lama Christopher

I love what you're doing, what I've seen of the work that you're doing is tremendous because it's so important these days.

Nick

Thank you, I think it came about having gone through severe depression, panic, and anxiety previously, and having been with loved ones who have also gone through similar situations, and I said this to Steven Hayes when we spoke that, I can see that stress levels are maintaining at least a steady keel if not on the upswing. So, the call seems to be to develop better skills for relating to it and working with it. Uhm, and you know, sharing that knowledge with the younger generations and us as well, so that we can relate to it better and not get overwhelmed by it.

Lama Christopher

I think that's one of the key things. I mean, this goes back 2 1/2 thousand years to the teachings of the Buddha. But you know, life is is difficult, or at least the unenlightened life is difficult. The unawakened life is difficult, you know. We find ourselves in the midst of difficulties that sometimes can feel overwhelming. And, It is very positive and very uplifting to know that there are skills, there are ways that we can work with the mind and with the body to enhance our wellbeing and then to be of help to others. So it's very timely, It's always timely. You know, I know, sometimes it seems like this is a particularly tough time, and it has been for many and continues to be. But I think it's human nature, perhaps to think that that these are exceptionally tough times and that any sort of study of history will tell us that down through the ages there have always been setbacks and joys, and that's the nature of life, so. Anything that we can do to help ourselves and each other too, work through that and rise above that I think is is timely and well called for.

Nick

Excellent, you touched on a few things and I'll avoid the temptation to dive straight in. But could I ask you to talk a little bit about how you came to Buddhism particularly?

Lama Christopher

Yeah indeed, so it's a very central part of my life. I'm, as you pointed out at the beginning, I'm a Lama, which is only with 1L, so, that means I'm a kind of Buddhist minister, meditation teacher, spiritual director and have been for now approaching 20 years, teaching meditation that is, I've been a Lama probably for five years. But how did I come to it? I was interested, growing up, in religion and the sort of fairly conventional, not too serious religious upbringing, although we went to Chapel every day at school and I was I was definitely interested in that. But you know, approaching 20 and it ran into a brick wall. I just couldn't make sense of some of the take it on faith, you know, almost magical aspects of the church and the belief system, and so I put it aside and embarked on a different religion.

I didn't really know it was a different religion at the time, but I spent the next 20 years practicing Materialism, you know, the belief that, money and success can cure all ills and it ain't necessarily so. Even with some money and some success, it seems like the problem still endure, and I was working a lot with people who had a lot of money and success, and it became apparent to me over that 20 year period that it was doing very little to help them with the difficulties that they faced in their lives and in their families and in their businesses.

It doesn't help us, and it has a tendency, that pursuit of money and success has a tendency just to leave a huge hole in our wholeness - the heart is missing. And you know that sort of existential angst that uncomfortableness, can be very destructive.

 Lama Christopher

You know it can lead us to all sorts of attempts at self-soothing and it did for me. You know, using behaviors that that weren't going to do me any good, to try and paper over that that uncomfortableness, just the lack in my life of wholeness and completeness, so I was lucky at a sort of very low point in in my life, in my early 40s, a midlife crisis, if you want to call it that with my marriage on the rocks to connect with my principle teacher. I wasn't really looking for spirituality or Buddhism or anything, but I was looking for some better way or some way out of that hole and he was clearly an example of, of the wholeness and completeness and positivity and encouragement that I was looking for, and that I was glad to find, and at first, I was quite skeptical because it didn't. You know it sort of didn't feel right and I had this identity of somebody who's not into that kind of thing.

But I gradually I discovered that there was something there for me and you know, 20 years later I'm extremely glad that I did.

Nick

That's a beautiful story and I can certainly resonate with a few points along the way I know gosh, I would have been about 30 the first time I discovered initially it was kirtan through the yogic traditions and Krishna Das came out to the Sunshine Coast, and just blew my mind you know,  I again was very skeptical. I walked into a church hall and sang my heart out and felt closer to the people in the room that I had too many people in years, over the space of a weekend and I went in deeply depressed and yet emerged three days later, smiling, and I thought I don't care how skeptical I am, there's definitely something to this.

Lama Christopher

Something is happening. Yeah, KD is wonderful. Krishna Das is one of he has so much heart and, as you say it, you don't really need to know how it works when it works and you just sort of can't deny that something has happened and you may not know exactly what it is, but he's a beautiful example of somebody who has devoted himself to the practice of a spiritual tradition in a way that is compelling. For people who come into connection with him and you don't have to worship somebody to recognize that, perhaps they have something that they can pass along that is just uplifting and encouraging and beautiful.

Nick

Yes yeah. So well put, it's a sense of coming home, which is bizarre because it was quite a long way from home, but you know, definitely felt like I'd arrived. Could I ask you to talk a little bit about a time where practice, I guess in general has helped you navigate a difficult time and I, I suppose as an extension of that on the importance of having a practice.

Lama Christopher

Yeah, yeah, so I've already mentioned that I was sort of pretty near bottom at the time when I first started meditating and exploring the whole possibility that just sitting and breathing and being might be a way of discovering something about ourselves that that was always there, but simply not recognized of tapping into our original goodness, if you want to call it that. And so yeah, I was very motivated.

I was I was in a deeply unhappy place and throwing myself into dailyish meditation practice, sort of taking it quite intensively if you like and reading a lot about it going on silent retreats at first for a day or two, and then for a week or two, and then for a month or two was, you know, very powerful, and I could really sense as you just mentioned, so beautifully that coming home in a way that made no sense rationally whatsoever, but just coming home to something truer and more aligned with goodness and wholeness. So it helped me tremendously at that time and has throughout the last 20 years and even over the last seven or eight months my wife Daniela, who is also a Lama, and I have been going through something together that's been tremendously difficult situation that we've had to handle and we both leant on our meditation practice and on each other, obviously, an fortunately that's resolved and I'm delighted to be out of those Woods, but you know, life doesn't necessarily stop getting difficult, you know it's lovely to think that oh it'll be blissful and everything will be fine and there will never be any problems again. And you know perhaps that's the naive idea we have about the possibility of waking up or of enlightenment, or of freedom, whatever you want to call it when we go in, But really, we're just looking to feel a little better and there's nothing wrong with that, especially if we're depressed or desperate, or hurting and we can't really change what life throws at us, but we can learn to ride the waves a little bit better, and perhaps rise above. The way is not get knocked about by them so much, and coughing and spluttering all the time as it were.

 Lama Christopher

And I think that's important, I think that possibility of navigating even really difficult circumstances, even perhaps the end of life, which is going to come to all of us at some point. Navigating that in a way that is serene and positive and whatever comes along being able to ease into it is a tremendous blessing, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that that means that nothing will ever go wrong again. It's really a way of coping with whatever comes along and being more at ease, less stressful, and I know that's something you've done a lot of work on and it's so important.

Nick

Again, beautifully put, I interviewed KD for a book I wrote about 11 years ago and I probably was sounding a little bit evangelical in that I've navigated depression, I've beaten it, that's it, it’s all done and dusted. Now on to the next project, and I think he sensed that because he said, just understand it's a process of going up and coming down, going up and coming down and not that it's not going to happen again, which I didn't want to hear, it’s just going to be building an ability through practice, to be able to sit with the difficult moments and not get swept away by them.

Lama Christopher

Right, yeah…

Nick

And you know, being able to enjoy the moments when they arise and not be too caught up in the difficult times to do not appreciate the good ones.

Lama Christopher

Not riding that rollercoaster of elation and depression that I think all of us to some extent, are prone to. I know trying to get away from the lows and trying to go toward the highs. It's really a surprising discovery again that pushing away what we don't like and trying to grab onto and hold onto what we like just, you know, makes us sick and gives us rope burn, 'cause it's always slipping through our fingers and once we get used to the fact that the rollercoaster may occur, but we don't have to be so dragged along by it and so invested in it, really, that the circumstances can arise and resolve without us being swept up and swept away and drowning,  that’s a real discovery.

Nick

Beautiful thank you. It's no secret, and we we've hinted towards this already, that globally things are pretty tough and I know that when I spoke with Steven Hayes he talked about that there is definitely a need for us to increase our skills in building I guess capacity to be able to sit with stress and work through it as you just mentioned by not being swept away by it, I know that Buddha had some specific perspectives on dealing with difficult times, suffering and also the path out  of suffering. Could I get you to talk a little bit about this?

Lama Christopher

Yeah, I think stress is a tremendous killer as we were starting to understand scientifically, and it just wreaks havoc on the body mind continuum and the two are much more interrelated than perhaps we knew until quite recently and are still discovering so that roller coaster that we were just talking about, of stress and adrenaline is something that is damaging to us and harmful to us and can lead us to unskillful actions that aren't necessarily helpful to us or to others so, what the Buddha recognized and he just sort of did the exploration and experiment for himself, 25000 years ago, what he recognized was that there are difficulties, and they're going to come along, and we can't necessarily stop them. That's his first Noble truth, often, perhaps not terribly well, put as life is suffering and that's a mistake, that's a bad translation. More than that, Cyclic conditioned way of getting swept up by circumstances, ordinary mundane way of going about life is uncomfortable is what he taught. That was his first recognition, his first Noble Truth.

He said the second was that that's caused by our endless tussle with circumstances; I want, I like this, I want more of this, I don't want that, fighting with what comes along trying to make it different, and as you said, the beautiful thing about his 3rd and 4th Noble truths, is that he said there is a way out. There is a better way, and here's the way. Here's how you might go about doing that experiment that exploration for yourself and you can see and he wasn’t very, you know he wasn't very evangelical to use the word you used, about it. He basically said do the experiment for yourself, see how it works and if it works for you, if this kind of thing seems to be going in a good direction, then you might want to pursue it, but don't take it just because I said so. And that was that was a beautiful message to me, that sort of empirical, OK, just do the experiment, you don't have to believe in something, perhaps you have to have a little bit of confidence that other people have done this for two and a half thousand years and it's made a difference in their lives, so yeah, maybe that's a belief. But just invest a little bit of time and he said and things will get better, and they do. And I think that's why for me, this has been an important path, partly inspired by the fact that it's not something somebody just made up. It's been around for millennia and people across different cultures have been practicing in this way and awakening in this way and that makes a difference. So yeah, that to me was inspiring enough to put some energy and some effort into it, and I think the Buddha's teachings are the ultimate stress relief if you like.

When, you know we're blindsided by something, Is just to turn awareness back on itself and give ourselves a little bit of space, maybe take a breath and feel what we're feeling. Allow whatever arises to arise, because often when something surprises us, we're so busy reacting. We're so busy, you know the fight or flight urge kicks in and you know before we know it, we've responded in some way that perhaps isn't that skillful or we're just, yeah crazed and don't know what to do and running around trying to think oh my goodness I’ve got to do something. 

So, if we can, as a result of having invested a little bit of time in a meditation practice, sitting practice in just allowing what comes up to come up, and as it will resolve if we don't mess around with it, we'll talk about that in a minute, then we have that skill. We have that ability, when suddenly there's a crisis of some sort, little one or a big one, whatever it may be, to be present and not thrown off and to be open and clear and to respond in a way that is not a knee jerk reaction, which may not be the best thing in that moment for that circumstance, but in a way that is clear and wise and kind and effective.

So that's why we practice, is to deal with those moments because they're going to come up. We all spaced something out sometimes, and you know, like get that message that says you're supposed to be on a conference call 10 minutes ago.

Nick

Yes, yes.

Lama Christopher

Where are you? What's happened to all of us?

 Nick

That's it and yeah, not going to that reactionary space of self-deprecation is, you know, is a good way not going there.

Lama Christopher

Absolutely, I think, giving ourselves a break is one of the things that I learned early on, and my teachers were so kind and so compassionate. that they gave me some confidence. I think one of the fundamental messages of this that that we're all fundamentally all right. That we’re naturally OK, good and kind. Yes, we may be confused. Yes, we may have done things that that we perhaps ought not to have done or that were not wise and kind and that doesn't make us at heart, bad people. It just means we did.Unwise, stupid, maybe even bad things. But the there is a way through that and that was a terribly important message, I think that message of unconditional acceptance, just as you are, perhaps is the most precious thing that anybody can give to anybody else, whether it's a parent to a child or a teacher to a student or friend to a friend. No matter what may be going on no matter what you may have done. There is that acceptance and you know it can be hard to see that in ourselves, but there are practices that we can do in the practice of lovingkindness going back to the Metta Sutra, you know at least 2000 years ago is one of them and we can talk a little bit about that. There are great modern day practices derived from that and from modern research of self-compassion that I think are tremendously valuable.

Christopher Germer [https://chrisgermer.com/] at Harvard and Kristin Neff [https://self-compassion.org/]at University of Texas Austin. Both have done great research and written good books on self-compassion and I think, learning to cut ourselves some slack. To lower the bar a little bit on our sky-high expectations for ourselves, opens us to our own suffering, If you like our own our own distress, and from that too, this is what so many others are going through. This is what everybody has to deal with on some level and once we open to it ourselves, we can be a lot kinder to ourselves and then we can sort of rise to the occasion more and then we can help others.

It's a little bit like putting on your own oxygen mask first and then helping others. It's surprising and it isn't always the way that Buddhism is taught or that that other religions teach there's a tremendous focus on the need to help others, and that's wonderful. But if we do that without really touching first into our own good heart and being kind to and forgiving ourselves and recognizing the basic goodness within us, within us all, no matter what we may have done if we don't do that first, then whatever we may do for others is a little bit artificial because we haven't really felt our own pain and difficulty. We may think we’re feeling there, but we're not really. It's more of an intellectual, or conceptual idea of what they may be going through? We haven't kind of touched into it through our own suffering, that may be slightly different from theirs, but being at peace with ourselves is key to being able to help others, and so I'm a huge supporter of lovingkindness and self-compassion, practices and you know my teacher said if you spend months or even years, starting with offering loving kindness to yourself before going on to those who are near and dear to you and to strangers and to even people, you have difficulty with, which is the traditional sequence. But starting with oneself, yeah, it seems to have gotten left out until quite recently, and it is right there in the original sutra or teaching of the Buddha a couple of thousand years ago at least.

Nick

Thank you, thank you. I know, personally I'll often go to social media if I if I reach a point in the day where I don't want to think anymore, or things become too challenging, and I want to check out for a moment, but I know, which is ironic, because I know it seldom leads to a greater sense of well-being, and normally I'll end up more anxious, more stressed, more distracted and with less time. I was listening to Ralph de la Rosa's book ‘The Monkey meets the Messenger’, where he mentions a study that looked at where when people are distracted from what they're doing by social media or whatever, it increases the overall feeling of dissatisfaction. So, we seem to crave it, know that it's not good for us, but continue to do it, and even that when we get a notification or vibration on our phone, that our blood pressure spikes a tiny bit. Could I get you to touch on the concepts of false refuge, self-cherishing and how they relate to our global fascination with things like social media?

Lama Christopher

Yeah, so I think this ties into what we were saying. What I was saying earlier, about my experience and taking, you know all of the wrong roads to try and fill that existential angst, that hole in our hearts. There's been quite a lot of research written, I think now, and I think Ralph de la Rosa is right on in in a couple of ways. One in that you know, he's not making, as I understand, I haven't read his book, but I had a quick look, he's not making the mind the enemy. Accepting of what comes up, and I think that's an important message to get across that we're not trying to flatline the mind, or to blank the mind, or to get rid of thoughts because we're never going to be able to do that. Becoming used to the way in which thoughts appear and left to themselves dissolve, if we don't indulge in them and get caught up in them, is very important way of getting used to how the mind works and reducing stress, so I think that's an important message in his book. The second point that you mentioned the way in which we resort to social media and we kind of get a hit from it. It's very topical, very important for us to recognize right now. So, part of it is that we're trying to fill that uncomfortableness, and we all do it. We all at times just fall into a kind of blank dullness that is not entirely comfortable and we reach for something, and these days it's right at hand. It's our device, it's right there never far from us and it'll provide some, you know, immediate seeming relief. And it's designed that way. You know there's a book. I came out a while back my son and I read it called ‘The Fix’ by Damien Thompson, who's a journalist in England. It's been quite controversial because it takes an approach to addiction that may or may not be entirely right, but he was right on about the way in which we are conditioned to use our devices, whether it's gaming, whether it's social media, whether it's just email, conditioned to come back again and again, and to get that little hit of dopamine and the research that Ralph De La Rosa is mentioning now is much more well-known than it was back, probably 8 or 10 years ago when Thompson wrote that book - The Fix.

They are designed that way to trigger the pleasure receptors or neurons or whatever it is, way beyond me, in the mind and they provide a little hit, but, in the same way as heroin or cocaine or something like that seemed to provide some instant relief, they then lead to a couple of things. They lead to a crash as you come down from them and the desire to do it again or to get more and we become habituated. So, this is the process of conditioning that the Buddha described, but sped up to a degree that is now ludicrous. You know our kids and ourselves are so stimulated by the media presented to us in all sorts of different ways from our screens constantly you know, news, flashes, email, there's friends texting. It's constant. The input that we're receiving and each little one is triggering us a little bit and it leads us to want more and to go back more to that and ultimately, it's unsatisfying as you say we were increasing our overall feeling of dissatisfaction because this kind of distracted, deluded, ‘scatteredness’ is terribly unhealthy, and so again, some sort of sitting or meditation practice, allows us to recognize that the mind in its natural state is beautiful, that the mind in its natural state is peaceful at any decibel level. Not just if we flatline it because we can't, but that it's actually peaceful in its natural state, allowing stuff to come up, but not necessarily getting swept up in it. So that enables us more clearly to recognize, ‘Oh, I could take a little bit of a holiday from my device’ for an hour and get on with some work or listen to some music or spend some quality time with my partner or my child or my parent not getting so distracted, so cut up by the constant barrage of information and entertainment and stimulation, and that's being thrown at us quite frankly, for purely capitalistic reasons. I mean, I'm a supporter of the capitalist economy, but I'm also a supporter of the government at times stepping in to say, you know too much is too much and you can't just run wild with everybody's minds.

Nick

No you can't and it is, I mean, it seems to be the new commodity is ‘mindspace’,  people’s attention, you know and how liberating it is to realize that we actually do control it, and we do have some, you know, agency over where it goes. Yeah, although it's difficult.

Lama Christopher

It is difficult. It takes a little bit of practice, which is why you know, I think it is worthwhile investing a little bit of time each day. I find and have found now, for North of 20 years that taking even a little bit of time out of the day to get used to just sitting and just breathing and just being is tremendously powerful in making more effective in making me less stressed out, in making me less distracted, and more able to consume wisely, you know, doesn't mean I don't ever look at Instagram or I don't have a read several sources of news, and go a little deeper than perhaps I wanted to. But then I can catch myself and I'm not an hour down the road, deep down some rabbit hole, nor am I stressed out by it, nor do I beat myself up as a result.

So, I think it equips us to deal with what modern life throws at us in a remarkable way, considering it's such an old tradition of contemplation and of wisdom. I think there are so many things competing for our attention as you say, it's all about attention these days and that touches into what you were saying about false refuge. These are all ways that sort of seemed to be compelling, that sort of draw us in, but they don't really offer the kind of relaxation and the real reward of joy and peace and happiness that is there. It's already present. We're just usually elsewhere.

Nick

That's a beautiful point. So, we spoke very briefly about Lovingkindness. Would you mind just talking and self-compassion? But would you mind talking about that, and what it is and how it can be a useful?

Lama Christopher

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity to talk about what it is because I think often, we conjure up an idea of Loving Kindness that is way too complicated and out of reach. Loving kindness in my lineage my tradition is really very simple. It's the simple wish, that someone be well and happy. It's simply wishing someone well. Now that maybe oneself, that maybe someone else. There's not as much difference between those as we might think. So, making the simple wish that somebody be well and happy is loving kindness. Compassion, a close relative if you like is the simple wish that somebody be free of suffering. So, Loving Kindness, focusing on the upside, wishing more happiness and joy for them. Compassion, focusing a bit more on the downside, saying may they be free of that difficulty that they're currently going through.

And once we define loving kindness in that very simple, easy way. It doesn't have to be a certain feeling or feel a certain way. It doesn't have to challenge us to say oh am I kind enough, am I my loving enough, you know, was that a kind thought? It's simply making that wish. May that one be happy. May I be happy. May you be happy. May they be happy, and practicing that has a tremendous power. Has a tremendous liberating joy to it that is quite beyond our logical theoretical knowledge seeking approach, you know, but if we try it and we accept that, that's a way that's been passed down for a long, long time. Just spending a little bit of time. As I said earlier, starting with ourselves and then moving on to those who are near and dear to us, for whom it might be quite easy to make that wish. Maybe even easier than for ourselves, but we shouldn't overlook ourselves. Making the wish that they be well, and happy comes very naturally for those who are close to us and then we could go on to strangers, and of course, we don't necessarily have to tell them. It's a practice of allowing our mind to do what it naturally is inclined to do, if we would but let it, which is simply to make the wish that, that one be happy that one be freed of whatever difficulty they are going through. And so you know, getting back to hopefully normal here with vaccines and modern science getting us out of lockdown pretty soon, I hope at least sometime this year, you know we will be back to meeting people, but even now you know there's there are people who we talk to remotely, there are people who might be helping us in one way or another that we come into contact with. We can even if we don't know them, you know, if somebody delivers a package or if we pass somebody in the street, then we may not know them. We can make the wish that they be well and happy and they don't even have to obviously be suffering for us to make that. May that police person be well and happy, may that Postal worker be well and happy. May that other driver be well and however it is, we can make that wish, and it's tremendously freeing and encouraging and uplifting for us, you know whether it has an effect on them, we shouldn't worry so much. This is a practice of freeing our mind so that we can be of more help directly to others.

Nick

That's beautiful, I'm trying to remain focused and not drift off to other questions that I wanted to ask you about then, but I think it is very potent too, especially when people go through difficult states of emotion where there may be some self-loathing to start offering that wish, even if it's not, I mean it's going to feel counter intuitive initially, but over time has a quite a miraculous effect.

Lama Christopher

It does, indeed it does indeed, and I think you know there are, there's power in offering oneself that wish, and an allowing some self-care because so many of us simply don't acknowledge that the importance of that. And there's also power in turning ourselves outwards you know, one of the quickest ways I think too to lift our spirits and to be less sort of down and concerned with ourselves, obviously, if somebody is deeply depressed then they may need professional help and that's readily available now in in so many ways. But any form of feeling down, feeling a little under the weather, depressed, is often alleviated if we can simply think of and start wishing well to someone else, or even do something for someone else. The power of service to others is tremendous. And if that's combined with some loving kindness for oneself and practice of what we've been discussing, then that's a tremendously powerful combination.

 Lama Christopher

The loving kindness for oneself prevents burnout, which can otherwise occur if we are totally self-sacrificing and focused on helping others. Burnout is not an uncommon result of that because we haven't taken adequate care of ourselves. But if we combine the practice of helping others. In whatever little ways we can, or even just of wishing them well, with the practice of doing the same verse helps, just as if we were another being we are just as deserving of love and compassion that protects us against burnout and enables us even more to be of help to others. So,  it's a virtuous circle.

Nick

Thank you, and a last question I was wondering. I know that there will be many people who will be listening who might just be coping each day and literally putting 1 foot in front of the other.

Is there a short practice for intense periods of stress that you would feel comfortable leading us in?

Lama Christopher

Certainly, yes, I would. I'd what I'd say is that, just as a quick preliminary that, If you're that way inclined, it can be very helpful to bring to mind a source of encouragement or support. Refuge we call it in in Buddhism, but it doesn't have to be thought of that way. It's really just. Somebody or something that represents in recovery, we would say a higher power, Uh, a source of encouragement and support. It can be somebody you know. It can be somebody you think of, It can be an ideal or an icon, or just wisdom and kindness itself. That sense of wholeness and completeness. If you can tap into that whatever it may be for you, having some sense of, something beyond little old me as a source of encouragement and support is tremendously powerful, so, to do a little bit of practice, and my tradition is really about practice. You know, we can talk about theory a lot, but just thinking about it intellectually doesn't always help. But, doing it can be a tremendous help, so if we find a comfortable place to sit, it doesn't have to be in a particular way, a comfortable chair or cushion, and bring to mind if you like, a source of inspiration, or of encouragement. Eyes can be closed or open as you like. You don't have to visualize anyone or anything. Just recall someone who for you represents, in this moment, spiritual warmth, acceptance. And with them smiling on you, encouraging you, you can just allow the body to embody you. Being embodied.

However the body feels however it looks, is fine, just as it is. Coming home to the body. Perfect embodiment. Just as you are. And then letting the breath. Breathe your body. Letting the breath come and go, Ebb and flow, as it will. No special way of breathing. Just sitting.

Just breathing.

Being breathed.

Coming home to the body and the breath.

And third to just being.

Letting all experience come and go as it will.

Naturally.

Mind like the Sky vast, spacious.

Unharmed by whatever momentarily appears.

In the body mind continuum.

Simply letting everything come and go.

As it will.

Letting be.

Letting the whole great procession of experience.

Proceed unhindered.

Moment by luminous shining moment.

And if the mind wanders off as it will.

Into the tangled jungle of thoughts and ideas.

Celebrate recognizing that.

Smile if you like.

That Little awakening and come back to just sitting.

And just breathing.

And just being.

Nothing to do.

Figure out or achieve for now.

Simply at home and at ease.

In the vast spacious.

Open.

Skylike nature of being.

And then if you like, you can.

Dedicate the power of the practice.

To the wellbeing of all.

Making the wish that it may uplift oneself, and all others. Not hoarding the benefit for ourselves, but sharing it. Happily. With each and every other being. And then as we. Reenter, Post Meditation otherwise known as ordinary life, we can allow as much of that presence, as much of that. Immediacy as possible to come along with us. We can be present in every moment no matter what we're doing at any decibel level.

So turning down the volume for a little while as we just did to get used to that to sit and breathe and be, and allow experience simply to roll onwards without getting, either in to pushing it away or into indulging it and getting caught up in it. That enables us then more and more to go out into daily life with that same view that same stance, of being fully present, and therefore active and involved and able to respond, and yet not caught up in our habitual ways of thinking and of doing kind of reacting.

Nick

Thank you, thank you. I there's no greater reflector of how present I am than my youngest. She'll often tell me that you're not here, are you?

Lama Christopher

Isn't that the way?

Nick

Thank you yeah.

Lama Christopher

How old is she?

Lama Christopher

10 yeah, that that'll do it. Yes, kids are wonderful. Kids are wonderful like that they’re totally switched on to whether we're there or not and there also, I was talking with one of my students today and he's got a little girl five months old. I said just you wait, you know they can be great at pressing your buttons as well because they know where all those buttons are so, practice is one of those things that helps us to be a much better parent because we can be present no matter what they find to throw our way and bless. Awesome.

They always do. Yes, we have a grown up. He's my stepson actually, but I regard him as my son and one of the great joys of our life is that, you know, he had a rather eclectic religious upbringing in the some one side of his family, his biological father, side of his family was Jewish and his grandparents, on his mother's side Catholic and we’re Buddhist, and so he had, you know, all sorts of things going on as he has grown up, but in his 20s he's from university onwards he's now 26. I think he's sort of become a serious meditator and just started leading some groups, so it's kind of an indicator to me because we never really made a thing of it.

That's just what we were, and you know, he knew that was going on, but never really took much interest in it growing up. That it was is wonderful for us that you know he kind of came to that on his own and said that you know that he never really realized at the time before he thought it was a bunch of nonsense, but he's really found that it makes a difference in his own life, and I think that makes it worth trying for all of us is that you know, and if it doesn't work for you, then you may you find something else that does.

But for so many of us this has been a life changer.

Nick

Oh absolutely. Absolutely yeah, I can attest. Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm so grateful.

Lama Christopher

You're very, very welcome Nick. It was wonderful to spend time together and to talk about this.

I mean, it's just it's beautiful that we have this this shared connection. My sister who died young sadly in her 20s. I discovered quite recently became for a time very involved in Tibetan Buddhism and spent some time in Scotland with Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, who was one of the pioneers of Tibetan Buddhism in the West, and it's, it's just, It's surprising to me that there are some of our family unit far flung as they are, all of whom have come to this in one way or another, and I'm not saying you know which brand, or but with and I think it's something that for all of us is there. Somehow you know, and it just is. It's just waiting for the right spark to awaken it in us. And as you as you so beautifully described with Krishna Das. Often when we least expect it something touches into our heart and shows us that there might be a away we hadn't thought of that could make a difference in our lives.

So, thank you for doing this.Thank you for the opportunity to be with you and I hope we can do it again sometime.

Nick

I'd love to, I'd love to … Lama Christopher Coriat thank you so much!

Lama Christopher

Thanks, Nick all the best.

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